About 'pulpy' - look, I haven't read all the books, but the ones I did had an unreasonable number of underage prostitutes who were also teen gymnasts, fake gypsies, circus performers, street children who were also chess prodigies, sable fur traders, power-mad oligarchs, and so on, and so on.
I don't say these things don't exist in real life (they all still do), but MCS seems to focus on them--that's ok too, btw! That's what makes the books entertaining, but this is also what makes them quite pulpy to me :)
Konstantin Dmitrievich, this essay is both thoroughly informative and highly entertaining, well done! It takes a bit for us foreigners to get acquainted to the intricacies of Russian formal and informal ways of addressing people. Could I make a pedantic remark, though? Raskol'nikov's mother's NP is Pul'cheriya Aleksandrovna; Ekaterina Ivanovna is Sonya Marmeladov's stepmother. My Russian NP would be Порция Иманнуиловна, which sounds очень смешно, as I'm painfully aware.😩
This is a great guide, explicitly stating something that is intuitive to Russian speakers but hard to explain to non-speakers. One remakr: a family name with a "vich" ending might indicate a name of Jewish of Polish origin. (E.g. Abramovich - Jewish, Mitskevich - Polish).
Thanks! I knew it, of course, living most of my life in Israel. But I decided not to stress it (everything is complicated enough as it is) and put everything under footnote #3. I might expand on that.
Jewish names of this construct have a distinct ending in American English (taken from Polish, as I understand): witz. F.ex, my friend's Karol Markowitz (see her substack here: https://karolmarkowicz.substack.com/)
...no, you're not lazy. That's for sure. "Lazy" рядом не лежало
- I've been reading some people who discussed reading Russian literature...they found the names so confusing, they created notes and columns for each, in a separate notebook . Indeed, you've got Rodion Romanovich, Rodion Romanych, Raskol'nikov, two first RR s but with the last name Raskol'nikov, Rodya, Roden'ka, Rod'ka...and this is just the main hero.
I must say I was incredibly impressed when reading "Joseph and his Brothers"...remember how the youngest, Benjamin, calls his beloved older brother Joseph all the diminutives, very fondly so? It adds so much, and shows amazing deep level of research ; but I imagine I'd find it hard, not knowing Hebrew. I'd figure it out pretty fast, of course, as it's still far cry from Russian.
But yes, it's hard to overestimate the meaning of names, in every culture I know about, even if just a bit.
-ah, and Alexander-Sander-Sanya-Sasha-Sashura-Shura-I'll stop here))
PS I find myself unable to sign with my first name as is, if a letter is to a friend/family/even acquaitance. It's always diminutive. with suffix "k". People are perplexed, at first. Or maybe they aren't.
PPS also took me time to get used to folks putting child's name in big letters on some wall in the nursery. Bugged me for some reason. I understood the rational; yet took me time.
Not only in Germany...I've had an occasion of someone lecture me on my ignorance in conflating my name of Tatyana with Tanya - was told it is unacceptable to mix these two distinguished names, because the former is a "white name" and the latter - "Black" [capitalization by the author]
This explains it well enough for an English speaker to assist with reading Russian lit. I’ve struggled with that in the past. I’ve had theories similar to your vodka/chess playing/ bear theory for years but they seemed stereotypical. I’ve similarly made stereotypical judgements of the Chinese and Japanese with regard to their use of Kanji
I was going to ask why you didn’t say Asimonovich, but I see now you were not using your P. I really enjoyed this article.
When I was little my brother and I pretended to be athletes at the olympics. I was always a gymnast from the USSR since they won all the medals. My name was Anuska Buskunova, but I guess it should have been Anya Vicentovna Buskunova (just to russianize lt).
English has few possibilities to define and verbalize private and social distances. Problems are undermined with "everyone calls me Joe". Which, incidentally, prevented the excellent psychologist Le Carre from becoming a second Shakespeare - he could only caricature his opponents
Maugham is of course ok. Most of the classics are no longer "entertaining" for us (Dostoyevsky is terrible). It's probably about the things between the lines? And yes, leCarre explains why he was terrible
The Strugazki brothers' "international" detective stories are also Russian books with Anglicisms. Only Tarkovsky internationalized them. Americans write English Russian novels with misused names, which they usually use incorrectly; just like you said 🤭
Das Problem des Nobelpreisträgers: Я не русский, а окаю! lösen wir im Deutschen mit den Begriffen des deutschen Sprachraumes & Kulturkreises. Auch Lichtensteiner lesen Goethe auf Hochdeutsch und Österreicher schreiben nach dem Duden
I can’t paste the image, but there’s a meme going around of a Russian soldier, in response to ‘What would Lenin do?’ responding “The kind Vladimir Ilyich would have shot everyone here.”
Good to know the use of NP there also contributes to the humor.
I have a profound aversion to nn, and also to diminutives in general: zhelaite kofeiku? A mozhet kolbasochki? The form makes me think 'saccharine granny who might be genuine, but may also wish to send me off to the front to be killed for the sake of the nation'. Babushka or baba-yaga - they both use the same lexicon, I fear.
But I like having fun with Ps, and so did my friends in the BBC bureau. One reporter was known as Derekovna, while I was plain Johnovich. Another colleague was known as Bernardovich (if you knew him, but not well enough to call him 'Alan', or indeed 'Alanchik') but was also known as Bernadich when it was his turn to buy a drink - "Ey, Bernadich, ty cho - zhaba davit, yopti?"
This is fabulous. As someone who cares about languages, my immediate response to your, "Should we abolish it?" is a highly offended, NO! This stuff is beautiful, and if it is complex, that is only because the people who make it are complex and interesting...
However, I will share an interesting observation. Here in China the conventions around names are not as complex, but there are plenty of diminutives and respect markers and titles that you can attach to names, so people do end up enmeshed in similar language cages. And in some contexts, the use of "English names" - a name chosen for themselves, often in the context of some daft English class - is quite popular, I think because it frees people from the system. An English name stands outside the conventions, and you can't add age markers or status markers to it. And some people (I've noticed it among women in office contexts, particularly) seem to like that.
So, no, it would be a terrible shame for the Russian naming conventions to be lost. But perhaps it's good to have certain escape hatches for pressure relief, for those who need it.
It is so new and interesting to me. I had to find your post. I don't understand why I didn't get your posts in my email. I love both articles about the R. names and Chimera. I know nothing about what is going on in R. poetry or prose. Hate all Russian now. But you are such a molodets. Spasibo. Thank you.
Dear Larisa. I had a similar problem - new posts stopped coming to email. At some point last year, Substack defaulted to in-app notifications (without mentioning it). If you go to your settings for notitifications you can turn email back on.
Thanks!
About 'pulpy' - look, I haven't read all the books, but the ones I did had an unreasonable number of underage prostitutes who were also teen gymnasts, fake gypsies, circus performers, street children who were also chess prodigies, sable fur traders, power-mad oligarchs, and so on, and so on.
I don't say these things don't exist in real life (they all still do), but MCS seems to focus on them--that's ok too, btw! That's what makes the books entertaining, but this is also what makes them quite pulpy to me :)
Konstantin Dmitrievich, this essay is both thoroughly informative and highly entertaining, well done! It takes a bit for us foreigners to get acquainted to the intricacies of Russian formal and informal ways of addressing people. Could I make a pedantic remark, though? Raskol'nikov's mother's NP is Pul'cheriya Aleksandrovna; Ekaterina Ivanovna is Sonya Marmeladov's stepmother. My Russian NP would be Порция Иманнуиловна, which sounds очень смешно, as I'm painfully aware.😩
Of course, you are so right! I misremembered the story, and didn't bother to check. I will fix it in the text, thank you! :)
This is a great guide, explicitly stating something that is intuitive to Russian speakers but hard to explain to non-speakers. One remakr: a family name with a "vich" ending might indicate a name of Jewish of Polish origin. (E.g. Abramovich - Jewish, Mitskevich - Polish).
Thanks! I knew it, of course, living most of my life in Israel. But I decided not to stress it (everything is complicated enough as it is) and put everything under footnote #3. I might expand on that.
You probably did but I figured it further clarifies things :)
No-no, that's a great addition. Thank you.
Jewish names of this construct have a distinct ending in American English (taken from Polish, as I understand): witz. F.ex, my friend's Karol Markowitz (see her substack here: https://karolmarkowicz.substack.com/)
...no, you're not lazy. That's for sure. "Lazy" рядом не лежало
- I've been reading some people who discussed reading Russian literature...they found the names so confusing, they created notes and columns for each, in a separate notebook . Indeed, you've got Rodion Romanovich, Rodion Romanych, Raskol'nikov, two first RR s but with the last name Raskol'nikov, Rodya, Roden'ka, Rod'ka...and this is just the main hero.
I must say I was incredibly impressed when reading "Joseph and his Brothers"...remember how the youngest, Benjamin, calls his beloved older brother Joseph all the diminutives, very fondly so? It adds so much, and shows amazing deep level of research ; but I imagine I'd find it hard, not knowing Hebrew. I'd figure it out pretty fast, of course, as it's still far cry from Russian.
But yes, it's hard to overestimate the meaning of names, in every culture I know about, even if just a bit.
-ah, and Alexander-Sander-Sanya-Sasha-Sashura-Shura-I'll stop here))
PS I find myself unable to sign with my first name as is, if a letter is to a friend/family/even acquaitance. It's always diminutive. with suffix "k". People are perplexed, at first. Or maybe they aren't.
PPS also took me time to get used to folks putting child's name in big letters on some wall in the nursery. Bugged me for some reason. I understood the rational; yet took me time.
My wife formally goes by Natalia, but in day-to-day, of course, by Natasha, and it's a source of constant confusion in Germany :)
By the way, thanks for the "Romanych" bit, I missed it, and now will add to the post.
Not only in Germany...I've had an occasion of someone lecture me on my ignorance in conflating my name of Tatyana with Tanya - was told it is unacceptable to mix these two distinguished names, because the former is a "white name" and the latter - "Black" [capitalization by the author]
Yeah, that's a tough case.
This explains it well enough for an English speaker to assist with reading Russian lit. I’ve struggled with that in the past. I’ve had theories similar to your vodka/chess playing/ bear theory for years but they seemed stereotypical. I’ve similarly made stereotypical judgements of the Chinese and Japanese with regard to their use of Kanji
Glad it can be of help!
I was going to ask why you didn’t say Asimonovich, but I see now you were not using your P. I really enjoyed this article.
When I was little my brother and I pretended to be athletes at the olympics. I was always a gymnast from the USSR since they won all the medals. My name was Anuska Buskunova, but I guess it should have been Anya Vicentovna Buskunova (just to russianize lt).
Thanks! That's exactly right :)
weeeelll...
English has few possibilities to define and verbalize private and social distances. Problems are undermined with "everyone calls me Joe". Which, incidentally, prevented the excellent psychologist Le Carre from becoming a second Shakespeare - he could only caricature his opponents
I think there is still quite a lot of distance between Le Carre and Shakespeare, but yeah, it does prohibit some finer stuff.
https://amzn.eu/d/hWA2Rj1
But of course he did not redefine language, inventing that of the opponent as a projection. Beautifully shown in the Pigeon tunnel
https://books.apple.com/de/book/a-delicate-truth/id591301790
I think, I read most of Le Carre. He seems to be a horrible person (based on his autobiography), but his books are always entertaining.
I would compare him to Maugham, not Shakerspeare, though. Maugham who doubled down on his spy past.
Maugham is of course ok. Most of the classics are no longer "entertaining" for us (Dostoyevsky is terrible). It's probably about the things between the lines? And yes, leCarre explains why he was terrible
Dostoyevsky is a bore, but I suspect he was a bore when he wrote as well. Tolstoy, on the other hand, is fascinating to read.
The Strugazki brothers' "international" detective stories are also Russian books with Anglicisms. Only Tarkovsky internationalized them. Americans write English Russian novels with misused names, which they usually use incorrectly; just like you said 🤭
Yes, there is a certain imbalance here :)
Das Problem des Nobelpreisträgers: Я не русский, а окаю! lösen wir im Deutschen mit den Begriffen des deutschen Sprachraumes & Kulturkreises. Auch Lichtensteiner lesen Goethe auf Hochdeutsch und Österreicher schreiben nach dem Duden
>>>> Я не русский, а окаю!
That's pretty funny :)
Super useful!
I can’t paste the image, but there’s a meme going around of a Russian soldier, in response to ‘What would Lenin do?’ responding “The kind Vladimir Ilyich would have shot everyone here.”
Good to know the use of NP there also contributes to the humor.
It does! Glad I could help!
This was really interesting and your English is really good.
You have taught me a lot in this, mostly not to have Russian names in novels now. Jk.
Thanks!
Имена-отчества это, кажется, универсальный конфуз. См. книжку Тома Вульфа, кот. я прочла ...больше чем 10л тому:
https://creakypavillion.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/one-sunny-day/
Yes, we make the writing hard for everyone else :)
I have a profound aversion to nn, and also to diminutives in general: zhelaite kofeiku? A mozhet kolbasochki? The form makes me think 'saccharine granny who might be genuine, but may also wish to send me off to the front to be killed for the sake of the nation'. Babushka or baba-yaga - they both use the same lexicon, I fear.
But I like having fun with Ps, and so did my friends in the BBC bureau. One reporter was known as Derekovna, while I was plain Johnovich. Another colleague was known as Bernardovich (if you knew him, but not well enough to call him 'Alan', or indeed 'Alanchik') but was also known as Bernadich when it was his turn to buy a drink - "Ey, Bernadich, ty cho - zhaba davit, yopti?"
Yes, nn and diminutives often feel forced. There is a horrible tendency of Russian waiters to do it, which I hope will be eradicated in the future.
That's very funny, but also somewhat endearing :) Thanks for sharing.
This is fabulous. As someone who cares about languages, my immediate response to your, "Should we abolish it?" is a highly offended, NO! This stuff is beautiful, and if it is complex, that is only because the people who make it are complex and interesting...
However, I will share an interesting observation. Here in China the conventions around names are not as complex, but there are plenty of diminutives and respect markers and titles that you can attach to names, so people do end up enmeshed in similar language cages. And in some contexts, the use of "English names" - a name chosen for themselves, often in the context of some daft English class - is quite popular, I think because it frees people from the system. An English name stands outside the conventions, and you can't add age markers or status markers to it. And some people (I've noticed it among women in office contexts, particularly) seem to like that.
So, no, it would be a terrible shame for the Russian naming conventions to be lost. But perhaps it's good to have certain escape hatches for pressure relief, for those who need it.
Thank you! I agree; inconvenience is a small price to pay for language diversity and richness.
It is so new and interesting to me. I had to find your post. I don't understand why I didn't get your posts in my email. I love both articles about the R. names and Chimera. I know nothing about what is going on in R. poetry or prose. Hate all Russian now. But you are such a molodets. Spasibo. Thank you.
Thank you, dear Larisa!
You should look for Женя Беркович's poetry, she is truly talented.
Sorry for my Russian: Костя, а где я ее найду? Подскажи пути, пожалуйста. Thanks for liking my note about Gumiliov. Have you read my essay about him?
Вот тут несколько:
https://blogs.7iskusstv.com/?p=115208
https://neznakomka-18.livejournal.com/885118.html
I started but haven't finished yet.
Dear Larisa. I had a similar problem - new posts stopped coming to email. At some point last year, Substack defaulted to in-app notifications (without mentioning it). If you go to your settings for notitifications you can turn email back on.
Thank you! I will try to do that.